Talk:Will Materialisation
Validity of the Page I know there's bound to be someone who has something to say. Well, nonetheless, this page was gonna to be created at some point, right? KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 14:53, June 27, 2013 (UTC) Let me ask everyone this, why do we need another "will materialis(z)ation" technique since we have Creation of All Things? There's no need to make another with the same purpose and effects--Elveonora (talk) 15:02, June 27, 2013 (UTC) :: Honestly, I do not know. Remember that huge discussion we had in Madara's page when it was you, me, and I believe one other person against the whole world? Well, some how, some way, they still believed that the two abilities had their "distinctive differences".(btw that discussion went unresolved) So to appease the masses, I created this. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 15:06, June 27, 2013 (UTC) :::At the point where we are standing, this page ins't necessary, but further chapters may prove that the page is valid, maybe not. Probably @Elv is right on this. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:12, June 27, 2013 (UTC) Yea, but it doesn't hurt to keep this page. There could possibly be forever ongoing arguments on what Madara did v. what the Sage did. So, for now, the page is good. Furthermore, this ability is a tad bit too astounding to not be placed in a page. It, literally could be a signature of Madara. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 15:16, June 27, 2013 (UTC) :Looking from that point of view, could be a Madara's signature, but it is a very remote probability. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:27, June 27, 2013 (UTC) ::: However, Madara's use of this technique has left trails of importance in the series. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 15:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC) Why only Yang Release Can someone explain, why this technique would only be an application of yang release? KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 15:27, June 27, 2013 (UTC) :Why would it be YYR? There's no body formed out of nothing/imagination, only will breathed into an already existing body. Seelentau 愛議 15:28, June 27, 2013 (UTC) ::I can say why isn't, so this is not for me xD. I'll wait for further opinions ^_^. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC) Well guys, what about the chakra receivers? KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 15:30, June 27, 2013 (UTC) :They're his will in a physical shape, dunno if that's YYR. But they don't have anything to do with this ability, hm? Seelentau 愛議 15:36, June 27, 2013 (UTC) ::Liking this discussion already, never thought about that possibility, it makes a lot of sense, but how could pain creat them? wouldn't that be only a Zetsu matter skill?. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:41, June 27, 2013 (UTC) :::The discussion in Madara's page, we wanted to account both in the same technique. Both the things Madara did was done to his will. He's putting them in a physical form. He did it creating the chakra receivers, and by tainting a Zetsu. At least the creation of the chakra receiver accounts for the Yin, form-creating aspect of it. And about how Pain made it, he seemed able only to increase the quantity of the ones he already had instead of creating them out of nothing. There's a comment somewhere about a WJS issue saying the made them by encasing his blood with chakra, but that was never properly sourced, so it never made it into any article. Omnibender - Talk - 15:44, June 27, 2013 (UTC) That's not how it works Seelentau. Yin is a thought form, Yang makes it real. It doesn't have to be alive to be YYR--Elveonora (talk) 16:28, June 27, 2013 (UTC) :Yang gives it life. Yin gives it form. We have neither here. We only have "will", which was never mentioned to be in relation to Yin or Yang. I really don't get why this should've anything to do with Yin or Yang at all. Seelentau 愛議 22:07, June 27, 2013 (UTC) ::Madara previously said that Zetsu were created with Yin-Yang Release. Black Zetsu is still a Zetsu. I think that the focus here is a bit more on what powers each nature. Will is sensation, it's something from the mind, volition. Yin Release comes from mental energies. And Madara said the chakra receivers are his will materialised, meaning that something insubstantial and abstract was given physical substance and form. Granted, it has no life, but we also know that those two natures are responsible for many ninjutsu, ones that don't necessarily give life to other stuff. Omnibender - Talk - 23:34, June 27, 2013 (UTC) :::Alright, White Zetsu was created with YYR and the black needle-thing was created with YYR. But why do you think Black Zetsu was also created with YYR? Seelentau 愛議 05:10, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::::Because Black Zetsu was made by taking a mental concept (will/Yin) and turning it into a physical concept (body/Yang). Madara basically said that when he infused his will to make BZ, that BZ was basically an inferior replica to himself. Darksusanoo (talk) 09:50, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :::::But there was no new body formed out of nothing. Madara used an already existing body. Seelentau 愛議 09:53, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::::::It sounds like Will Materialisation is simply Yang Release. General Awesomo (talk) 12:21, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :::::::"Will" isn't physical, but a mental attribute. So it couldn't be only YR. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:41, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::::::::Right. Will and life are close to the same idea. That's why it sounds like only Yang Release. General Awesomo (talk) 12:56, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :::::::::I know. In this case i believe it is YYR, creating "will's" form through Yin Release, and giving it form through Yang Release. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 13:09, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::::::::::You're right, but I was thinking about the case with Black Zetsu. In that case, we would have to specify that that process is only Yang Release, as Madara is only materialising his will in an already existing form, the White Zetsu. ::::::::::On second thought... where did the Chakra Receivers, Disruption Blades and Receiver Stakes come from? Their forms weren't created by Madara. They came with the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path. General Awesomo (talk) 13:18, June 28, 2013 (UTC) Sage's ability was called "creation of all things" not of living things. Yin is a concept of something in mind, thought form of it and Yang makes it real, animate or inanimate--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, June 28, 2013 (UTC) Honestly, what more needs to be said here? Where's the Yin Release here? There's no forms being created. General Awesomo (talk) 14:20, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :@General he is trasnforming it in black roots, giving them his "will". How could you apply something that isn't fishical to a fishical state without Yin Release? Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:27, June 28, 2013 (UTC) Alright guys, let Koto try and break this down. This technique is called Will Materialization. What we saw, or know, that Madara created whats his will given form. The will itself is his image and design of what he creates (which in this case is Yin) The action of creating it, or bringing it to life, is our Yang. Just b/c Madara skipped the process of showing us the previously formed mental image, doesn't mean he doesn't do that part first.If I can quote Elveo on this one: "it's basic reading comprehension". KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 14:28, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :The act of simply creating form is Yin Release. Madara didn't actually create any form. General Awesomo (talk) 14:33, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::What are those black chakra receivers coming out of Obito's half Zetsu body part? Isn't that giving form? And transforming something that is white to black isn't giving something that is not physical? If that is not Yin Release, i don't know what Yin and Yang are. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:40, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :::The same way White Zetsus turn into trees when they come in contact with Yang Release. Madara's Will Materialisation "awakened" the black spikes in Obito. General Awesomo (talk) 15:03, June 28, 2013 (UTC) Are you flippin' serious ,General A? Just b/c the Black Zetsu doesn't have a body of his doesn't mean he didn't create form. Yin is an imaginary form; yang is giving it physical form. He definitely created form sir. It was just attached to something that already existed. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 14:36, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :Koto Senju: yes, I am serious. Relax. You have Yin Release and Yang Release a little mixed up. Go ahead, check their articles. Yin Release is creating form. Yang Release is giving life to the form. All Madara did in the case of Black Zetsu was materialise his will (in this case, it gets treated as life) in a White Zetsu. Yin-Yang Release would be creating a Black Zetsu from scratch. General Awesomo (talk) 14:47, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::Ok, im relaxed. However using the same example: Madara created the form for black Zetsu(Yin), attached it to White Zetsu, and infused it with life and knowledge, thus making it sentient.(Yang) Just b/c he created it attached to White Zetsu, doesn't mean it's not from scratch. His design was for it to be attached to White Zetsu. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 14:53, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :::He didn't create the Black Zetsu. He gave it life. The Black Zetsu grew its side of the head and an arm on its own. General Awesomo (talk) 15:11, June 28, 2013 (UTC) The form that Yin Release creates in a non-tangible imaginary one, nothing physical, only it with Yang it becomes one. That's why Genjutsu are Yin Release, they are mental, not physicall--Elveonora (talk) 14:59, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :You sure about that? The article for Yin Release says "The Yin Release (陰遁, Inton; Viz "Dark Style" or "Shadow Style") techniques, based on the spiritual energy that governs the imagination, can be used to create form out of nothingness." It doesn't specify what kind of form. General Awesomo (talk) 15:07, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::Yes @General, @Elv is right, but the truth is that the Yin Release article and Yang Release article are difficult to understand, they are a bit confusing. But the knowledge that Yin creates non-tangible forms, only imaginary ones, comes with the series' information acknowledgement. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 18:08, June 28, 2013 (UTC) So everyone who has a will is using Yin Release while having that will? And those who make that will physical are using Yang Release to do so? At least that's the logical conclusion if you're saying the will alone is Yin Release. Seelentau 愛議 21:22, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :Well yes will alone would be yin release --ROOT 根 (talk) 21:58, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::Well, "then lets add Yin Release to every character who ever had the will to do anything, like buying Ramen or so.". Sounds dumb, doesn't it? But that's the logical consequence when you take things as fact, even though there's close to no information available. This is exactly what's happening here and one of the bigger problems I have with this wiki: You're taking things as facts even though they aren't confirmed yet, only hinted at. For example: The 2nd Mizukage said that all Intonjutsu are genjutsu. What we should write in the related articles: "The Second Mizukage stated that all Intonjutsu are genjutsu". What some of you guys want to do: Adding Inton to each and every Genjutsu and Genjutsu user because going by what the 2nd Mizukage said, every Intonjutsu is a genjutsu and that surely means every genjutsu is an Intonjutsu, too. Or to go with the matter at hand: Tobi explained how the RS used BS to create the tailed beasts and how Yin and Yang were involved. What we should add: How Yin and Yang were involved in the creation of the tailed beasts. What some of you want to add: Yin Yang Release to every article that sounds as if there could be Yin Yang Release involved, even if that was never directly stated at all. You're overthinking things, which leads to false or unconfirmed information being written down as facts. This isn't helping the wiki at all, as you might guess. Seelentau 愛議 22:11, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :::I understand now, your right we do need to stop adding every little things that are not even confirmed as facts but you a right I've realized that adding will as yin release would be very stupid, but having read this argument the yin and yang problem Is a bit confusing --ROOT 根 (talk) 22:18, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::::By the way good edit you Just did then Selantau-san I'ts made me understand will materialization better :) --ROOT 根 (talk) 22:24, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :::::(edit conflict times 100) Mizukage made a generalisation about Yin Release and genjutsu. I don't recall his statement in any way defining that all Inton are genjutsu, nor the other way around, all genjutsu being Inton. As far as the black rods go, giving it a form to me accounts for Yin, the "concept" or "image" of it as a rod. Making it real, is Yang. What complicates this is that the rods aren't alive. Those two aspects for me are enough to list it as YYR. With BZ, it seems to me Madara simply materialised his will, but in a different form. Instead of making it a rod, he manifested it as a different personality of Zetsu, he personified his will and knowledge in that. That isn't ideal either, because while alive, it was made from something else that was already alive, a White Zetsu clone. If not listed as YYR, it shouldn't be listed as either Yin or Yang, but as explained, I think there is enough things said to call this a YYR. But it has to be either both or neither. Omnibender - Talk - 22:29, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::::::I understand where you're coming from, but you're basing all this on the very few and very vague information we have about Yin and Yang. We don't know how the whole concept works, we only have bits of information from here and there, and you guys are making statements acting as if you'd know everything there's to know about Yin and Yang. That shouldn't be. :/ Seelentau 愛議 22:35, June 28, 2013 (UTC) See now, that's the thing that causes the confusion. Blk Zetsu was not created from White Zetsu, he was created attached to White Zetsu. Do not forget they can separate. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 22:37, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :Nope, you can see in the manga that WZ is being filled up with the will, similar to a coating or an infusion. Seelentau 愛議 22:40, June 28, 2013 (UTC) You are overreacting Seel, no one said buying Ramen equals Yin Release. Giving a thought form (Yin Release) being genjutsu and then making the said genjutsu real with Yang Release equals Yin-Yang Release. Thinking isn't yin release, but materializing of thought is genjutsu, mental form of things essentially--Elveonora (talk) 22:38, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :How can you give a thought a form, if not by materializing it in the real world? Seelentau 愛議 22:43, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::With Yin Release. Imagine you are an artist. The ideas you get are subjective, they are nothing, unless you paint them on something, then they became objective (Yin Release) you gave them a figurative form by doing so. By adding Yang, you make the drawings real--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :::If the idea of a painting is Yin and the painting itself is Yang, then I still ask: Shouldn't we add YYR to everyone who ever had an idea (Yin) and put it into action, thus materialized it (Yang)? Seelentau 愛議 23:26, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::::Depends on how you make the painting. For sake of argument, let's look at Sai. His technique screams Yang Release. Why not Yin-Yang? Because he draws the paintings himself. Deidara's clay sculptures are kinda like that as well. The forms they give those creations aren't done with chakra, only animated with it. Not all actions can be considered like that. If someone thinks up a new taijutsu move and uses it, that's obviously not YYR. If someone thinks up a new Fire Release that looks like jackal, and uses it, that's neither YR. Omnibender - Talk - 23:46, June 28, 2013 (UTC) ::::Again, an idea itself isn't Yin, because it's subjective and the existence of a thought in reality can't be confirmed/verified because it doesn't exist in any by others observable form whatsoever. It has to be objective, either taken from one's mind and shared with others or embodied in a form as an object, exposing it to space and time. A painting is a good example of intangible transformed into tangible. A genjutsu too, sharing an idea/thought or memory with others gives it form, because of their senses and ability to comprehend space and time, it's like watching a film.--Elveonora (talk) 00:04, June 29, 2013 (UTC) Obito and Nagato as Users - A General Rinnegan Move I think this is a general Rinnegan move as both Nagato and Obito could use it, too. We saw Obito use it in his fight with Kakashi where he summoned one and stabbed him. Diamonddeath (talk) 16:04, June 27, 2013 (UTC) :I don't wanna be rude and just bump this, so im gonna give you a solid no. Read this technique again. Then read Madara's and the Chakra receivers' pages. Madara, created those. It is only as you said. They summoned them, nothing else. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 16:08, June 27, 2013 (UTC) Yin Release, Yang Release or Yin-Yang Release? Ok, lets settle this out, to me it is Yin-Yang release and none of them separately. Someone with his opinion made too? If yes write it here. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:22, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :Yin-Yang. KotoSenju ('''OldUser:'JaZZBaND)''-Talk- 14:29, June 28, 2013 (UTC) I say it's simply Yang Release. Madara isn't creating any form with Yin Release. He's using Yang Release to materialise his will into things. And he didn't create the Chakra Receivers, Chakra Disruption Blades or Chakra Receiver Stakes. Those came with the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path. General Awesomo (talk) 14:34, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :You are obviously confused. Read my last comment 2 topics above. Second, the rods didn't come from the statue, that was something we assumed. They were likely in for it to could be controlled by Madara--Elveonora (talk) 15:00, June 28, 2013 (UTC) It is aubviously yin yang, you need both of them to creat something out of nothingness.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 22:31, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :Wasn't Madara just talking about Yang (or was it Yin) in the panel where he created Black Zetsu?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 23:24, June 28, 2013 (UTC) :Ok People...Yang Release is stated as a life giving/physical based energy...Yin Release is will/mental based energy (genjutsu anyone?)...Madara takes a mental concept or energy (Yin) and turns it into a physical one, such as the black matter that envolved both Obito and Zetsu (Yang), and as such he can enforce a direct control over others (Thus Yin-Yang). Plus Madara said that the rods were a physical manifestation of will and we saw how they protuded from Obito when Madara enforced control over him...first to turn mental energy into a physical one is the whole basis of Yin-Yang...and thus things that are derived from it...such as making a clone from it or a person being controled by it, are also Yin-Yang. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:10, June 29, 2013 (UTC) :"It is aubviously yin yang, you need both of them to creat something out of nothingness." :From Yin Release's article: "The Yin Release (陰遁, Inton; Viz "Dark Style" or "Shadow Style") techniques, based on the spiritual energy that governs the imagination, can be used to '''create form out of nothingness'."'' :Man, what the hell. General Awesomo (talk) 00:21, June 29, 2013 (UTC) ::Thought is nothingness, genjutsu is the form.--Elveonora (talk) 00:24, June 29, 2013 (UTC) Do we really need this article? And what is Yin Release? Do we really need this article? Will Materialisation is simply an extension of the Outer Path. It's implanting Madara's will, and like the Outer Path with Chakra Receivers, Chakra Disruption Blades and Chakra Receiver Stakes, Will Materialisation can be used to control a body just like with the Six Paths of Pain. What is Yin Release? What kinds of forms can it create? Tangible or intangible objects? Can it create an apple? A tree? A boulder? We have to specify this in it's article. If it creates tangible forms, then we can rule out Black Zetsu's creation coming to through with the use of Yin–Yang Release. General Awesomo (talk) 00:22, June 29, 2013 (UTC) I believe the actual "activate will taking over" part is done through Outer Part, that doesn't make this technique an Outer Path ability at all. This article is about materializing will, not it taking over. And there's no need for another topic, the rest is discussed above--Elveonora (talk) 00:27, June 29, 2013 (UTC) Ok people instead of wasting the space of the discussion, read the articles on it...let me give you the short version. Madara says black rods are his will manifested in physical...will is a mental concept which is the basis of Yin Release which also envolves genjutsu. Yang is a physical one...Naruto's NTCM is pure Yang chakra which can cause certain things such as Wood Release based things grow further, as it is a life giving force. Yin-Yang takes a mental concept and turns it into a permanent physical one (The Sage used this to turn the Ten-Tails' chakra into the tailed beasts, The Uchiha used this for Izanagi, and Madara used this to create a physical device to enforce his will and control over others...when he made Black Zetsu, he had already removed his Rinnegan, so if he could still use it, he doesn't need the Rinnegan)...so all in all, yes this article is necessary. And if Madara needed to use the Outer Path to do this, he wouldn't be able to make BZ, becaus he had removed his Rinnegan at the time! Darksusanoo (talk) 00:33, June 29, 2013 (UTC) @Darksusanoo, your lack of reading comprehension is morbid--Elveonora (talk) 00:45, June 29, 2013 (UTC) :Making jabs at those you disagree isn't a great way to contribute either. Disagree all you want, no need to be ungraceful about it. This is something I really should tell more people around this wiki. Omnibender - Talk - 00:49, June 29, 2013 (UTC) Darksusanoo, you still didn't completely answer my second question. Can Yin Release be used to create tangible objects? Good point about the no Rinnegan part. But let's not rule that out, saying no Rinnegan = no Rinnegan powers. For example, for Susanoo, in the trivia we have stated that "Members of the clan have been noted to access Susanoo without having their Mangekyō Sharingan activated." So maybe once you have the Rinnegan awakened in your blood, you don't absolutely need the eyes to use the abilities. And we've never seen or heard how the rods were created. Could be Madara, could have come with the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path. And I've chosen to make a new topic about this... because those topics were getting crowded lol. Sorry. General Awesomo (talk) 00:51, June 29, 2013 (UTC)